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08-E Hist Pres Comm (02-23-04) HISTORIC PRESERVATION COMMISSION FEBRUARY 23, 2004 Item One: Tbe meeting was called to order by Arvin Stan-ell, at 4:02 PM. Item Two: The roll was called by Ann Rogers, Recording Secretary. The following Commission members were present: Arvin Starret Ann Rogers Paul Denney Sue Lancaster Becky Norment Barbara Wilson Jerry Raper The following Commission members were absent: Brian Wear The foJlowing guests were present: Steve Methven Tommy Haynes Larry Schenk Linda Su Suarez Marvin Gorley Dr. DeG Hayden Item Three: Minutes from the January 26, 2004 meeting were presented. Mr. Starrett said on mention ofMr. Haynes and Barbara Wilson I would ask for clarification from you all that the bottom of page one, the petitioner Lamar COllIlty Chamber of Commerce, top of page two, a motion to issue a Certificate of Appropriateness I am told that was a motion to table. Is tbat the consent of everyone's memory? Please make that change. Mr. Denney indicated that those two people did make tbe motion to table it. He also indicated that his name was misspelled and that it should be"ey". A motion was made by a woman, seconded by Sue Lancaster and passed unanimously. Item Four: Inform members of the Commission of the postponement ofthe planning and Zoning Public Hearing regarding the Proposed Historic District ofS- Church Street, S. Main Street, and I" Street SW to a later date previously scheduled for March 1, 2004- Mr. Starrett said he had personally asked for this meeting to be postponed because this body needed to consider some potential changes to the ordinance that created this commission and we Historic Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page 2 needed some time to work on some property owner incentives with regard to property owners in any historic district; and finaJly, to give some additional time to education the property owncrs who seemingly arc not understanding the process at tbis time. This hearing has not been rescheduled. He called for questions. Paul Denney asked if the moratorium was still in effect. Mr. Starrett stated that it would be in eftèct because this body has not acted. Mr. Denney said he was asking because someone on the south end of Church Street at the corner of Long that is doing some work on their porch hastily- Woman stated that ifhe was talking about the green and purple house has been underway for about three years and I am sure that he is considers it an ongoing eompJetion of a previous permit. A man stated that they may have taken out a building permit three years ago. Item Five: Remind the commission òfthe March I Workshop with Bratton Thomason from Tcxas Historical Commission. You agendas say that it will be held in the Council Chambers but that has been changed to Room 1040 of this building and that change was made because of handicap accessibility. This will be a posted agenda and a public meeting. Time is the same at 9:00 a,m. Item Six: Review of and action on stmctures considered dangerous by the City Code lnspeetors, determine whether such structures can be rehabilitated and designated on the National Register of Historic Places; or as a recorded Texas Historic Landmark; or as historic property as designated by the City Council of the City of Paris as listed below: A. B. 602 NE 4th Mr. Starrett indicated that there were pictures in their agenda packets. A woman moved to recommend demolition at 602 4th NE. The motion was seconded by Jerry Raper. Mr Haynes stated that the motion needed to state that it was not a bistoric property. The woman moved that we agree that this (602 4th NE) is not a bistoric property and tbat it is agreed to recommend demolition. Jerry Raper seconded the motion. It carried unanimously. 537 8th NE Paul Denney moved that this stmcture has no important significance and it cannot be rehabilitated. Motion seconded by a woman. Motion carried unanimously. c. 436 W. Province A woman moved that this stnrcture has no important significance and it cannot be rebabilitated. Motion was seconded by another woman and passed unanimously- D. 343 SE 3" This is a partially standing stnreture that has been partially standing for a long time. A woman made a motion that this stmcture has no important significance Histone Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page 3 and it cannot be rehabilitated. Motion was seconded by Jell)' Raper. The motion passed unanimously. E 336 SW 3rd Paul Denney said he had a prob1cm with that. A woman said she had a problem with it. Arvin Starrett said he had a problem too. Paul Denney: I am not in favor of the demolition of that house. I do think that is historically significant for tbat area and I do think it can be rehabilitated, I think other avenues need to be looked at. Woman: I have done a lot of work on the history of that house. It was the homestead of J.W. Rodgers and? Rogers that immigrated to Paris in 1867 with three children and a.hired man. They turned that house in to a boarding house. There were other structures at tbat time; a separate dining room and kitchen which has been demolished since then............................. Most ofthe interior architectural elements are still there: tbe fireplaces, the tile, the medallions. It needs extensive repair but honestly it is not in as bad of shape as Eddie and I worked on on Church Street. There arc two houses in the area that arc in mucb worse shape than this. I do not think that it should be torn down. I think we ought to make some __taxes arc current on it. Starrett: Was this a request for demolition or a recommended demolition? Haynes: I am trying to remember tbe situation on this. This is the one we had from last month. Woman: Yes, people have been living in it and they moved out. We even have it on the - map. HaynES: I bclieve that we had someone in the area that noli ¡¡cd the Code people on it. I am not sure. Denney: I would also say that the lady that was in there called, it has been several months ago, called me and said that Artis _~gave her that house Sunday school and she said if she couldn't fix it she would like to give it to the historical society. But she never did. She worked on it some. ........The story oftbat house Man: Is there a resident owner of ................................. Men and women talking in the background-no particular sentences. Historic Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page 4 Man: Didn't the house bum on November 5th of 03" Denney: How much fire damage was done? Woman: There is no fire damage visible from the outside of that house, None. Looking through the windows J still couldn't find any. I don't know where the fire was, It is well secured on the bottom level. I think the firemen did knock a few windows out on the top floor. Man: I noticed that there was a hole in the front roof. \Voman: Tbat doesn't bother me any more. Men and women talking about sorileòne's house. Starrett: I am going to call for a motion and get thc pleasure ofthc commission and I am trying to ascertain \vhethcr this motion by naming this property a restorable historical propelty at the same does tbat motion propose that this property be namcd as such and open up the hearing process. Mr. Counselor can you answer that question? Schenk: I think Mr. Chaim1an the ordinance provides that if you opt to designate a property as potentially historical tben by virtue of doing that it automatically prevents the building standards commission from moving forward until sueh time that tbe ordinance provides that eitber this commission does something toward preserving the historical naturc oftbat property either with tbe owner or some other people and iftbat attemp is unsuccessful the process will automatically expire and return to the Building Standards. Starrett: I would entertain a motion as such. Woman: I make that motion Denney: I second Starrett: The motion being that tbe property being at 336 SW 3'd bave potential historic significance and should not be razed at this present time. Any discussion or deliberation. If not, all in favor say AYE. Any opposition. Motion carried. F. 653 NW 4th Historic Prescrwrlion Commission February 23, 2004 Page 5 Denney: I make a motion that it has no historic valuc and it is not restorable. Man: Seconded Starrett: Any discussion or deliberation. Ifnot, all if favor say AYE. Any opposition. Hearing none, motion carried. WOMAN: I am going to ask that we move number 9 on the agenda item irthat is possible. STARRETT: Sure we do have some people waiting here don't we. Why don't we commissioners move past 7 and 8 and move to agenda item 9, discussion of and possible action on approval of Certificate of Appropriateness. A. Silver Fox Antinques, 10 Clarksville Street. The petitioner here is Mr. Christopher Grigsby. Stan-ett: Is Mr. Grigsby present? Mr. Grigsby: That's me Starrett: All right sir. Thank you very mueh for what you have submitted. Your materials are exactly what we like to sec. Quite exemplary of your petition. Commissioners I would simply open up. It is my understanding; if you would eome up to the microphone Mr. Grigsby so we can get you on the tape, It is my understanding that it is your intent to simply take the existing sign and to replace the verbiage on the inside with your logo. Mr. Grigsby: Yes sir. Starrett: Any questions? Woman: So where are you going to identify your business? If this is a logo as opposed to. Am I misunderstanding? Tbis circle will be completely fillcd up with this with no verbiage on it? Mr. Grigsby: Yes mam. Correct Woman: So where is your sign? Mr. Grigsby: That is my sign. It is not going to say Silver Fox. Woman: OK, you are not trying to convince people to come over and find you're Historic Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page Ú antique shop. Mr. Grigsby: I submit that I won't have a problem convincing people to comc to the antique shop irrespective of signage. I am doing that intentionally. Woman: I have not read your application before I came, 1 don't think 1 would have any problem. I just thought it was the most unique thing I could think or. It is tasteful and not requiring a lot of - . -' I guess my question was will there be an additional sign that you will want to deal with? Mr. Grigsby: At this time no ma'm. If! hit that bridge then I will reapproach the commission. I think with thc appropriate changes 1 do left or right of that center I will come back to the commission. Mr. Starrctt: So there won't be one on the window or on the door or anything like that? Mr. Grigsby: No sir. Denney: They will wonder what it is and come in to see what you got. Conversation between men and women StarTett: Commissioners I will entertain a motion that the certificate of appropriateness of Silver Fox Antiques at 10 Clarksvillc Street hc granted. Denney: I make that motion, Starrett: Is there a second. Raper: 1 do Stan'ett: Any discussion. lfnot all in favor say AYE. Any opposition? Motion Carried. Mr. Grigsby thank you very much. Mr. Haynes will have that for you at his office. B. Starrett: Miehella Bumgamer and Brenda Smyers - IOl Grand Avenue. Anyone to speak on this issue today. This was a partiaIly tabled proposal was it not Tommy? Haynes: Yes, if you remember they had several items that they wanted to come back to us with and they have not come back yet. Historic Preservation Commission February 23,2004 Page 7 Starrett: I would call for a motion to table. Woman: I make that motion. Stan-ett: Second Please Other Woman: Second Stan-ett: All in favor say AYE. Any opposition? Item B is tabled. c. Starrett: Item C Ms. Line Drown at 221 Bonham Street. Pegg (accompanied by Mrs. Brown): Good afternoon, my name is Melody Pegg. I am with the law offiCe of Michael Mosher. We have filed a lawsuit on behalf of the Brown's. It is a class action lawsuit and we would request that you table this matter until the lawsuit that is pending is settled or decided by a court. Starrett: I call for a motion to table. Denney: I make that motion. Starrett: Second please. \Voman: Second Starrett: All in favor say AYE. Any opposition? It is tabled. Thank you very mucb. Pegg: Thank you. D. Starrett: Agenda Item D, Under 9, The Lamar County Chamber of Commerce, City of Paris, 1125 Bonham Street, Sante Fe Frisco Depot. This was a tabled item from the previous meeting as well for which I was absent with regarding signage. Is that correct? We will need a motion to remove it from the table. Woman: I so move. Starrett: We have a motion to remove the item. Is there a second'! All in favor say Aye. Alright now Woman: What was the motion? Starrett: The motion was to remove the item or reinstate the item that had been Historic Preservation Conmlission February 23, 2004 Page R tabled and I believe that Linda Suarez is here on behalf of the Chamber. Linda would you care to speak to this group. SUAREZ: Well, J would first of all like to apologize for not having anyone here at the last meeting so that we couldn't talk about it at that time. We have prepared an application for signage in front of the Depot at 1125 Bonham StrccL The signage would include the moving of the Texas National Road Marker from the place that use to be the S&H Green Stamp place; that the marker is there that marks that as the central national road of Texas and we have applied with the Daughters of the Republic of Texas to have that moved over to a more visible location and then also to have an identifying sign in front on Bonham Street in front of the Depot to identify that as the Cbamber of Commerce. And we have submitted a proposed rendering of what is available or what is proposed to include railroad ties on the end to signify the Chamber of Commerce along with the Genealogical Society and the Visitors Center as well as Heritage Hall and then there is an original railroad crossing sign that bas been located apparently is available for our use. Incorporating a marquis so that there could be events advertized, or time and temperature kind oftbing. I believe that the photographs have been submitted to you in your packet along with a current photo of what is existing which is basically nothing but a truck parking lot. ST ARRETT: I do have one question that perhaps you can answer, Linda, How far Üom the street will this sign begin? SUAREZ: I don't know. May I ask Marvin. MARVIN: _--d__---------------------------------------- SUAREZ: 15 FEET STARRETT: I overheard somc discussion recently that J think made a valid point and tbat being that since this docs sit on 82 which is a state highway do we know whether or not TxDot might have a problem with that railroad flashing sign being located at the street there. SUAREZ: I don't know if that sign can even flashes. MARVIN: It can. SUAREZ: It can flash, yes. We haven't asked TxDot. We haven't done anything. This is what has been proposed so far. So J brought my pen, I brought my piece of paper, because I beard through the grapevine that there is some concern about maybe too much stuff there and that kind of thing. Historic Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page 9 STARRETT: My, and I am speaking personally, my greatest concern is that railroad crossing sign and whether or not even TxDot would want it to be there. And I think that is something that needs to be thought about. SUAREZ: ok WOMAN: It would improve the effect if it weren't there because right now you have three elements where you really need one good sign. SUAREZ: Alright ANOTHER WOMAN: What kind of landscaping, I know you had planned landscaping all in the area. I-low will that tic in? SUAREZ: Well we did have some landscape plans drawn and I don't know if that has been submitted to you all yet or not but there was a parking lot design that had been submitted to you and the landscaping plans are on hold until the parking lot is constructed. So that you know that the big trucks and everything And I cannot tell you the status at all on the parking lot. STARRETT: This body had already considered and passed off on the landscaping on the parking lot. SUAREZ: And as you can see the parking lot is so needed because in one of the photos T have submitted to you, you can sce that trucks are continuing to park there. On that part. I am sorry I am obviously very unprepared with this but this is the starting point and we know that. Are there any suggestions other than it is too cluttered that we can perhaps be a little more specific with our designer. DENNEY: T would make one comment about it and something that you might incorporate with it. You have on the Depot you have a white kind of baseboard, for lack of a better term, of concrete. Then you have a little bit of brick, then you have a bulk course of white concrete. If you took those elements and somehow integrated that in to your design of that sign that is a very easy way to really tic it in with the Depot with very little expense to pick up some of that detailing of that base for lack of a better term. SUAREZ: ok and maybe brick. DENNEY: yeh possibly. SUAREZ: Keeping it with brick. Because one could argue that the railroad trellis on this side or the bed on this side could emulate that with the strip at the bottom Historic Preservation Commission February 23,2004 Pagc 10 and the stripe at the top. Too much conversation WOMAN: If there was a major objection to using the tics and the rails then you could get the same proportion and the same horizontal look by doing what you suggest. DENNEY: That is only a possibility; its an option. It is not necessarily making me vote against something. WOMAN: I ean only imagine the overa1l of the 11 acres or however much is there that there would be a place for ifthis is a hi storie railroad crossing sign then it can still be used somewhere even if it is not used out here on the street. SUAREZ: What is the thought about perhaps incorporating that marquis somewhere on that sign so that there could be information, required events. WILSON: Raise where it says Chamber ofCommeree and then put the maquis strip underneath it. And incorporate it in to the sign itself. SUAREZ: Ok. So shall we just go back to the drawing board and maybe bring some other thoughts to you next time. ST ARRETT: I persona1ly, Linda, would like to know... I like Barbara's idea about the marquis being on the lower portion of your primary sign; PaLti had some good thoughts ahout tying to the building, not that the railroad ties don't; I am really concerned about the railroad crossing sign whieh potentially could be somewhere else on the property without any problem but not knowing what TxDot might approve and sinee that is part of the application I would like to move that this be tabled until the next meeting and then we could get the answer from TxDot , work with your designer and then come baek perhaps with another option. SUAREZ: Ok. Marvin do you have any questions since I wi1l be taking it baek to you. MARVIN: No I think I got it all. SUAREZ: Thank you very mueh. STARRETT: Thank you Linda very much. I called for a motion to table this item. Historic Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page 11 WOMAN: I make that motion. DR. HAYDEN: I have some other issues. WOMAN: Oh we have some other objeetions. STARRETT: Alright. Dr. Hayden. Please do, sir. DR. HAYDEN: Marvin and I had a long discussion about this about 4 or 5 o'cloek and as he said fortunatcly he is not very sensitive. Because ¡ told him that ¡ did not like anything about this. You know we spent a million dollars stabilizing and preserving a historic building and we are fixing to minimize the effect of that by doing something like this. That is the way I feel about it. Less is more in this particnlar case like it is in most pieces of architecture, we are overdoing it you sec. Paul had a good idea. I would make a simple sign that simply says Union Station, Chamber of Commerce, Genealogy Society, and Heritage Park. Eye lcvcl and let it go at that. What I think is extremely important right here is that we consider that as it exists right now the Depot is an island and if we extended that island out to Bonham Street and had a grass area, a green area in there that could be landscaped, then you would make the sign much better and mueh easier to accommodate the sign and you would have a nice thing that blends in with the deal. As far as the parking places are cone em ed, I don't see a proh1em right thcre because we have plenty of parking on the west side and the east side of that building and we don't need any parking along that green area. And if we put that green area therc then we can put some shrubs out there in the street to keep those trueks from parking out there and that would never be a problem. So that your vision ofthe Depot from the street would be completely unobstructed by any1hing except for the Depot itself. People ride down that street and never see that Depot over there. So I think that in all fairness Linda had showed me that before and I told her that I thought it was pretty neat but T really wasn't too enthusiastic at the time. But Marvin and I had a nice discussion about this and I didn't hm1 his feelings. But I feel like two of those things go together. STARRETT: Thank you Dr. Hayden very much. Stcve if you will hclp my memory, the only parking that was allowed in the new parking plan there were four handicapped spaces near the building and then the rest. STEVE: Two I believe STARRETT: Two and the rest was grassy median. DENNEY: If you all will remember, we discussed that a little bit. ¡ locked horns a little bit with Gary Vest on it because what my idea was you have that old Historic Preservation Commission February 23,2004 Page 12 historic strip of concrete but there is a big old place where those trueks park. My idea was to go ahead and do a landscape plan about ten feet east ofthat, then put your curb and do enough islands if you did put parking there to keep a truck from being able to do that. But he didn't like that too mueh. And he is short of money and I can't argue with him too much. But if you are going to allow parking I think you've got to put an island to break up a semi trailer where he can't just parallel park. HA YNES: You have to keep the handicapped parking there. DENNEY: Oh that is the law. Yes. SUAREZ: I forgot something. Do I need to fill out a separate eertilïeate of appropriateness if we \"ould like to put up a small sign saying "No Truck Parking", you know, "Tow Away if you park here" or something? You know what I am saying? We have got to do something. T mean every single, you live right there, every single time we go out there, there is a trailer that has just been dumped there. Sometimes they stay there for a week or more and if there is not a number on them to eall and ask them to move it then J have to call the poliee. Then the police tell me to have it towed away. I kind a hesitate to have it towed away if we don't have a sign there there asking them not to park there. STARRETT: I am wondeling, J don't know the ADA or how a parking lot works, but I am wondering if even temporarily the city wants to eonsider some SOJ1 of stasions or chains or something that is more effective but not obtrusive in that area to prevent this from happening until such time as the project is complete. WOMAN: And they eome in and run those motors all night long. SUAREZ: And I am not talking about the Coea Cola trucks beeause they are there very temporarily; I am talking about people that live in the neighborhood who do not have truck parking in their yard so they choose any parking lot that they can find and leave their-dump their trailers basically. So I don't know if! need to apply separately or I am sure T do. STARRETT: I think I would say yes as it is pennanent, quote unquote pcnnancnt sign. SUAREZ: Well it would only be permanent until we get those parking areas taken care of. I understand that there have been some engineers running around there so I'm assuming that the parking lot projeet is about to take place. STARRETT: Would the traffie commission be pulled in on this since it is on city Historic Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page 13 property and pay for the street. Is that their issue? IIA YNES: I don't think it is SCHENK/HA YNES/SCHENKlMETHVEN SCHENK: You are talking about trying to keep them off the land? HA YNES: Trying to keep them offthat area wbere they are parking. SCHENK: Thcre may be a state statute that requires a sign and the format of the sign says you have to post the sign tbat says that violators will be towed. And I think that is what we need to do. I would think that we have a two fold truck problem. I think.lOi1g~teml even the Coca Cola tmeks need to be asked to move as to whether or not the tmck is temporally right there because that is really I think another traffic hazard, but certainly if they are dumping their trailers on our land we don't let anyone do tbal. SUAREZ: They are doing it SCHENK: We can post the appropriate signs SUAREZ: So I would get with this fellow WOMAN: lfit was a temporary sign in the overall scheme of things which is what you are talking about-something less than a year then it would be something tbat we would not have to meet on, HAYNES: STARRETTIHAYNES HAYNES: I think what we would do is have some type of a temporary sign maybe put in two different locations there in that area so that somebody coming from one way or the other would see the sign saying No Truck Parking Violators Will be Towed. SCHENK: I know that part of the problem is that right now part of it is Dr. Hayden's I think we need to post the sign and get this problem straightened out. STARRETT: I would suggest tbat you apply for a certificate of appropriateness Historic Preservation Commission February 23, 2004 Page 14 with Mr. Haynes. But due to the size and the nature of the issue he would be able to grant that certificate without it coming back to this board. HAYNES: That is the temporary signs you arc talking about to keep the trucks from parking? And you will do a new Certirrcate of Appropriateness for your revised sign that you and Marvin arc going to work on. SUAREZ: I am sure that the certificate, the application would remain the same its just that tbe design would be different that we would bring back. But I will rrll out the certificate of appropriateness. STARRETT or llA YNES: You will not need to fill out another one of these SUAREZ: And then again............the new revisions. As far as the temporariness of that sign it would be dependent on when the parking lot is addressed. So Like I say they have got engineers nlllning around the place so I am assuming that any day~pretty quickly. STARRETT: And let me say this as well depending how long your designer will need to complete his revisions. This body will be meeting on March 1 and which is a week from today so if you could discuss that with him and if you think that is feasible, get with me tomorrow and we will get you on the agenda for March 1 >t. SUAREZ: Thank you very much. STARRETT: I do need however from this body a motion to table this issue, Motion, second, passed. STARRETT: Tbank you Linda very much. ST ARRETT: Let's just go backwards commissioners to Agenda Item A, we arc speaking of signs so lets go to discussion of and possible action on the signage designated Downtown Historic District. STILL NEED TO FINISH THIS PART OF THE TAPE. Tbe end of side one of the tape still needs to be completed. Side two is typed below but it still needs to be proofed.