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Gray That is what I thought. Burgin Five to ten. Harris I guess, my point being on that is, maybe we need to look somewhere, maybe it is not a four university that we need to look at. Burgin We have people with a master's degree gone to work with us. It just depends on what a person wants to do with his life. Harris And, I feel a lot of young black kids is that is what they want to do young. They want to be a policeman,. They want to be a fireman, but as they grow up, you don't hear that anymore. You know, it maybe that we need to start talking about it at the schools and encouraging, just like, you know, vocational kinds of careers, you know, I think we put more emphasis on that. It may be that something that we can start doing earlier on in the schools, you know, like firemen more visible in the schools, you know, like you were saying for policemen. They have had an officer out at the school for, and that may have been good for recruitment purposes. Anyway, I think that Karl has brought policemen from outside, you know, people outside that are already in that field, but it may be a good idea if we start in the schools earlier on and try to get. Mary Ann Fisher entered the Council Chambers at 11:45 AM Gray The city here has three department heads that has nobody black in it, and you are the one in the fire department, you got two more that has never had a back in there and you go all the way to Houston to get a Parks & Recreation guy. This guy comes down here and during the time he has been here he has interviewed blacks, but he is still not hiring blacks. He has always got an excuse for that one he had was excused. If you can go all the way to Houston to get a Parks & Recreation guy, bring him down here and he can't hire anybody black, we have a problem. You all have a problem. Harris But, he did apply. You have to have an application before you can fill a position. I don't see how you can get around.